Revolutionizing Dental Education: A Conversation with Dr. Muhammad Ali Shazib
Episode Description
Join us for an enlightening discussion with Dr. Muhammad Ali Shazib, Dean and Chief Clinical Officer of the Workman School of Dental Medicine at High Point University. Learn about their innovative approach to dental education, including community-based clinical training, integrated business education, and how they’re preparing students for the future of dentistry.
Episode Navigation
- 00:14 – Introduction of Dr. Muhammad Ali Shazib
- 00:54 – Current state of dental education
- 04:00 – Why choose High Point University Workman School
- 06:14 – Admissions process and values alignment
- 15:57 – Clinical education approach
- 21:40 – Community-based practice model
- 34:51 – Discussion on tuition and financial sustainability
- 39:11 – Managing culture across multiple locations
Key Takeaways
Educational Innovation
- Values-based admissions focusing on collaboration, compassion, integrity, innovation, and growth mindset
- Integration of business education and entrepreneurship into core curriculum
- Community-based clinical education through HPU Health practices
- Emphasis on real-world practice experience and technology integration
Clinical Training Model
- 275 operatories across multiple community practices
- No traditional dental school clinic – all training in working practices
- Integration of digital dentistry and advanced technology
- Focus on efficiency and real-world productivity standards
Meet Our Guest
Dr. Muhammad Ali Shazib: Dean and Chief Clinical Officer of the Workman School of Dental Medicine at High Point University. DMD from Boston University and completed residency in Oral Medicine at Harvard University. Leading innovative changes in dental education through community-based training and integrated business education.
Featured Discussion Topics
- Future of dental education
- Values-based dental training
- Community practice model
- Business education in dentistry
- Technology integration
- Clinical efficiency training
- Practice management education
Connect With Simplify Dentistry
- Website: simplifydds.com
- Facebook Group: Simplify Dentistry Community
Topics: dental education, dental school innovation, practice management, dental technology, dental business education, clinical training, community-based dentistry, dental school curriculum, dental practice efficiency
Transcript
00:00:01:19 – 00:00:14:11
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Simplify Dentistry Podcast. Join us as we discuss clinical, operational and financial aspects of your practice. Hope you enjoy life and dare to simplify dentistry.
00:00:14:13 – 00:00:40:07
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Welcome back to the Simplified Dentistry Podcast. I’m Doctor Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan, along with my co-host Doctor Murtuza Shah-Khan and Doctor Richard Offutt. We want to welcome today’s guest, Dr. Muhammad Ali Shazib. Doctor Shazib is the dean and chief clinical officer of the Workman School of Dental Medicine at High Point University. He received his DMD from Boston University and his residency in oral medicine at Harvard University.
00:00:40:09 – 00:00:54:14
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Welcome, doctor Ali Shazib. We’re glad to have you with us today. Workman School of Dental Medicine is a new institution that is embracing a shift in dental education. How about let’s start with where you generally see dental education today.
00:00:54:16 – 00:01:25:14
Dr. Ali Shazib
That’s a great question. And a pleasure to be here on this forum and podcast with you all. Dental education right now is at an interesting period. The rate of technology advancement is unprecedented. There is a very strong momentum for convergence between medicine and dentistry and healthcare as a whole. And the economics and governance and policies of our healthcare system is also, in a fairly flux state, if you will.
00:01:25:16 – 00:01:43:17
Dr. Ali Shazib
So dental therapy has a lot of these challenges to face right now. And where it’s heading is the need for integration, adaptability, emotional intelligence and entrepreneurial skills, which we believe will help position, our learners, our graduates, for the evolving changes of the future.
00:01:43:19 – 00:01:52:21
Dr. Richard Offutt
A doctor Z let me kind of set the table a little with this, student. He wants to become a dentist. Why? High point University, workman school?
00:01:52:23 – 00:02:25:14
Dr. Ali Shazib
I think I think the answer is every school does its best to graduate the best leader or best leader in dental healthcare. But if they’re specifically looking to be in an environment that is highly experiential, which means the real world guides our education, the real world guides how you practice, how you learn, how you develop relationships. HP Workman School of Dental Medicine is the, in my opinion, the premier, you know, destination or choice for those students.
00:02:25:16 – 00:02:50:01
Dr. Ali Shazib
If you’re someone who is looking to learn about mergers and acquisitions and how that happens while we’re doing them, our learners get a chance to do them with us. If they’re interested in real science and they’d like to spend time learning about, you know, noninvasive, self-adhesive, you know, self, assembling peptide materials like this. We have clinical trials that we conduct that they can be part of.
00:02:50:01 – 00:03:27:19
Dr. Ali Shazib
And, and conduct, and be part of if they’re interested in advocacy. We have partnerships lined up where they can go in and be in part of advocacy and clinically, through our distributed model, which is the first of its kind in the country. Every practice, we have is out in the community, owned and operated by High Point University Health, which is a non-for-profit organization that provides care for all patients from fee for service to Medicaid to special needs, to pedes to adults, which mimic the authentic environment of a group practice, private practice, DSO hospital efficacy.
00:03:27:20 – 00:03:42:02
Dr. Ali Shazib
So we’ve got all that lined up where through the care curriculum, which summarizes clinician advocate, research, entrepreneur, our students get a reality TV lens approach towards, our evolving field.
00:03:42:04 – 00:03:47:02
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Piggybacking on what doctor Ashford said, what exactly are you looking for in an applicant?
00:03:47:04 – 00:03:49:09
Dr. Richard Offutt
Who’s the target for you guys?
00:03:49:11 – 00:04:15:22
Dr. Ali Shazib
We we, so our a values alignment. So our values and our core values are collaboration, compassion, integrity, innovation and growth mindset. And I would say we look for those values through the unorthodox admissions process that we have developed. We’re one of the very few programs, 1 or 2 programs out of all the other schools that are not on decentralized app.
00:04:16:00 – 00:04:51:16
Dr. Ali Shazib
Because we have developed, an application process that is looking for those values, to be quantified and qualitatively expressed. Some are reflection questions, some are third party, tests that are more of psychometric tests to look at situational awareness. And then we have a series of interviews that are Ascii style interviews. And then we have a simulation haptics psychomotor test that is a surprise test that our learners take where we’re not looking at how perfect their depth perception is, but how they are able to respond to an exercise that was thrown at them out of the blue.
00:04:51:19 – 00:05:02:05
Dr. Ali Shazib
And they have to pick up, a hand piece on the simulator and do this, cutting it with an air that, looks like a, an airplane simulator cockpit. Right. So when you.
00:05:02:05 – 00:05:20:09
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
When when you talk about psychomotor skills, you know, one thing that we always saw is, you don’t always have great hands when you come into dental school, but they can teach you to have great hands. You can have good hands, and they can teach you how to have great hands. Are you kind of ruling people out who walk in and don’t have good hands?
00:05:20:11 – 00:05:46:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
On the contrary. That’s a great question. I totally agree with what you’re saying there. Science to support. From the, Surgeon General’s office in Netherlands, they did a very large multicenter study looking at, laparoscopic surgery skills and, learning curves. And they came up with this through haptics simulation research, that everybody can reach mastery almost everybody can reach mastery.
00:05:46:13 – 00:06:14:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
But the curve to reach mastery may vary depending on individual characteristics. So we believe everybody can be trained to be, excellent in psychomotor skills, unless there is a, a medical condition that may, you know, prevent that from occurring. So on the contrary, we’re not looking at measuring psychomotor accuracy. It’s more. So, how do you respond to failure when you’re given an exercise that may be completely out of the blue?
00:06:14:10 – 00:06:29:18
Dr. Ali Shazib
Because in health care, a lot of the times we are dealing with non textbook situations where we have to make a judgment call that is not black or white. How do you navigate those blurry areas where you need to make, an improvised decision with the best available information?
00:06:29:21 – 00:06:54:14
Dr. Richard Offutt
You know, a few years ago, actually, let me correct that. Many years ago, I was on a, I was on a panel where we spent a couple of days, discussing who who, who makes the best, who what type of person makes the best doctor. And and it were on the panel were, psychologists. There were behavioral scientists, there were physicians, there were.
00:06:54:14 – 00:07:15:08
Dr. Richard Offutt
Dan. Dennis that was me. There were. And we discussed this and and what I think was most stunning with what you just said was the alignment of values, whereas so many times it has been what did you get in biochemistry? That’s not good. Yeah. Okay. So, so, maybe talk a little bit about that when you’re admissions.
00:07:15:08 – 00:07:23:01
Dr. Richard Offutt
I mean, the alignment of values. I think that that’s so important to young people, especially that are seeking a career in healthcare.
00:07:23:03 – 00:07:47:12
Dr. Ali Shazib
Can’t, you know, I can’t echo and stress the importance of what you just stated. You know, I think, we’re also in our admissions process that, has received a lot of interest is we don’t require the dental admissions test. It’s not to say we’re not looking for academic resilience and scholastic aptitude. The average GPA of our entering class was 3.4.
00:07:47:14 – 00:08:12:19
Dr. Ali Shazib
And the incoming class that’s going to enter currently, and we haven’t obviously closed our cycle yet, is above 3.4. To us. That GPA is not a measure that has a direct relationship to how likely they will succeed as a health care provider, because the measures we’re looking for are qualitative, which is empathy, compassion, communication, humility, collaboration, teamwork.
00:08:12:21 – 00:08:46:19
Dr. Ali Shazib
And I think if you look at the most successful, clinicians out there, who patients love and rave about and get excellent care are usually the ones who have that. And technical skill rather than technical skill and not that. And we believe both are important, but we we think 60% is values and the life skills. If you will, and 40% is the the knowledge of, you know, biomedical sciences, behavioral sciences, clinical sciences that make you a well knowledgeable, well-rounded clinician.
00:08:46:19 – 00:09:09:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
And I think the ratios traditionally have always been favoring, 80% scholastic and 20% of the others. And I’m just throwing very, you know, arbitrary example. But I think that’s a trend we’re trying to be more cognizant of is, what are employers saying the most about, the, the graduates they’re taking in? What are their top ten concerns?
00:09:09:14 – 00:09:34:15
Dr. Ali Shazib
And if you, you know, cross-section review most of our employers feedback about, dental graduates, they wish they had better, understanding of time management, multitasking, communicating with team members, talking to patients in an empathetic way. How do you, conflict management of a grievance or how do you, like, deal with a HIPAA breach? Who would you talk to about what happened?
00:09:34:15 – 00:09:56:01
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
We’ve had several guest on who said the biggest thing missing is actually learning how to do the dentistry. So they’re saying, you know, from when we went to school to now you’re cutting less teeth, you’re doing different things. How are you guys approaching both of those things? I mean, how do you accomplish teaching the dentistry and then teaching this all within four years?
00:09:56:03 – 00:10:15:18
Dr. Ali Shazib
Yeah. Spot on. So my, job, talk when I joined Hypo University, from when I joined initially as chief technical officer, what’s called the three hour conundrum and the three hour conundrum was that why does it take three hours? Or why are we told three hours is the time that we have to cut this crown in the same lab?
00:10:15:20 – 00:10:40:11
Dr. Ali Shazib
Because if you look at that, that does not at all link with the reality of how much time it takes to do a crown prep in a, in a in a viable manner that will sustain the business of dentistry. And if you compare the best simulation programs out there, that’s aviation. They have the best training standards for simulation for commercial pilots and military pilots, Air Force pilots.
00:10:40:11 – 00:11:05:07
Dr. Ali Shazib
It’s the rigor of how complex and real life is simulation based on the real world. We have invested heavily in areas where we can teach and train our students based on benchmarks of the real world, so they will not pass if they’re not able to do a specific procedure in the simulation room or simulation lab. Better than the real world.
00:11:05:07 – 00:11:35:02
Dr. Ali Shazib
So if in the real world, the average two three, nine two takes you, to surface posture, your restoration takes you a to an hour just throwing it out there, you have to exceed and beat that in the simulation environment to be deemed as competent or to have a pass in that sort of exercise, not just the procedure, the whole encounter, the whole visit from seeing the patient, reviewing medical history, consenting local anesthesia, isolation, all the steps that are laid out.
00:11:35:04 – 00:11:56:12
Dr. Ali Shazib
So our goal is to mimic real world, practice, bring it into the simulation lab, into the lectures, and so that our students never see the three hour conundrum. They don’t. Maybe there are three hours that you need to do X number of procedures in three hours to be deemed clinically competent. So our whole cycle in our preclinical education is very, very rigorous.
00:11:56:12 – 00:12:37:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
Our first years as we speak are in, preclinical bootcamps where they’re having to shoe a cusp or do a restorative procedure with the element of time. Time is such an important factor that our students don’t get a time, a review of the time they take to do a procedure. And last thing, last but not least, they get to, replay the recordings of their work so we can actually show them an action replay of their work so that the clinician or the the faculty is not perceived as someone who is going to intimidate them or scare them by giving them, a subjective opinion, but they can actually sit with the learner and
00:12:37:09 – 00:12:39:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
watch the video and sort of coach together.
00:12:39:09 – 00:12:43:22
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
There’s a, there’s a, like a, a benchtop camera that is recording their procedures.
00:12:44:00 – 00:12:54:06
Dr. Richard Offutt
So we do they get do they get to throw a red flag and appeal a decision. You know, I mean I think the way it’s going, can they throw the red flag and challenge it. Yeah.
00:12:54:08 – 00:12:56:10
Dr. Ali Shazib
Would be great competition. We should bring that up. Yeah.
00:12:56:12 – 00:13:00:07
Dr. Richard Offutt
Yeah. You get one flagged, one procedure. Yeah.
00:13:00:09 – 00:13:28:14
Dr. Ali Shazib
Just so funny like to be a referee, but, yeah, actually it’s it’s, you know, the goal is to be, to gamify learning in a way that has impact to patient care or the benefit of our patients, but also to be safe for our patients if we can demonstrate competency, at a higher bar level in the preclinical environment and it doesn’t mimic the real world, then what’s going to happen is our our patients will not get that quality of care that they need when our students grow in that environment.
00:13:28:14 – 00:13:45:17
Dr. Ali Shazib
And then it leads to instances where, when I was in dental school and I think every dental school does a phenomenal job and I have all the respect in the world for them. But it took me six times to impress on the same patient to get my impression perfect. And I can only feel that if I were that patient.
00:13:45:17 – 00:13:59:10
Dr. Ali Shazib
You know, how many times have I manipulated the the mouth and the tissue and probably created some injury or distress to basically get learning accomplished? That was learning through what you would say, trial and error.
00:13:59:12 – 00:14:06:07
Dr. Richard Offutt
You know, you know, after six times you’ve kind of done your crown lengthening. Yeah. And you know, it’s becomes easier. Yeah.
00:14:06:09 – 00:14:28:20
Dr. Ali Shazib
So we that’s at the balance. We believe there are four elements of a successful organization in our in our four metrics are elevated patient experience. So making sure that even if it’s education, the patient experience has to be the number one goal. Because a student needs to see a modeled patient care behavior. Model patient care encounter. So that’s elevate a patient experience.
00:14:28:20 – 00:14:47:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
Number two is improved healthcare outcomes. How fast can we get somebody in with pain. You know I say yes mentality. Let’s get this person in their pain. Let’s eradicate disease and stabilize. Step three is team wellness and well-being and culture. How is the leadership focus of the team? How is the culture of your team? Dentistry has intimate relationships.
00:14:47:09 – 00:15:12:18
Dr. Ali Shazib
You know the hygienist relationship, the assistant relationship, the care coordinators manager, other dentists, community societies. How do you manage those relationships and for is fiscal sustainability? It should not be a sin to talk about fiscal sustainability. If you’re a school, you should teach your learners how each practice needs to run to be sustainable or breakeven or beyond so that the overhead dots, overhead cognizance is there.
00:15:12:20 – 00:15:39:00
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
You mentioned one thing earlier. Your practice model is community based practices. I think that’s where the clinical experience is versus the traditional floors of a dental school, where you go to the operative floor, to the restorative floor or whatever it is. You also mentioned acquisition. So do you guys acquire practices that goes into your network, and that’s where the students learn, or do you start practices or do you do both?
00:15:39:02 – 00:16:00:05
Dr. Ali Shazib
A great question. This is the part that gives me a lot of excitement, is there is a clinical network, it’s called HPU health, which is a nonprofit, non-for-profit clinical enterprise of the Workman School of Dental Medicine. Myself and Doctor Kevin Kane, who is a senior associate dean. He’s an MBA and PhD in strategy. So he studied the the dental industry and trends for over two decades.
00:16:00:07 – 00:16:29:06
Dr. Ali Shazib
But we do both. So we acquire practices. So these are, dentists that have a philosophical, synergy or compatibility with our model. And they’ve got a good reputation and their practice has a necessary footprint that meets our needs. And what we would do is go into, a negotiation to acquire and purchase their practice. And that would result in the dentist and the staff all becoming full time employees at High Point University.
00:16:29:08 – 00:16:51:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
And then they get calibrated as faculty and staff, and they enjoy all the benefits that, you know, any other employee would enjoy. And then if they’re a landlord, we would have a lease agreement. And if you know, and the goodwill of the practice, we would purchase, including the equipment, and then we would over a period of 90 days, do our due diligence, and then we would bring them on to our electronic health record, which is epic, which is fully medically integrated.
00:16:51:11 – 00:17:24:21
Dr. Ali Shazib
And then we would start to do the standardization journey and process and the parallel. We’re also building brand new practices. The novos they’re typically large 30 operatory surgical specialty hubs that will be for specialty care, for example, special needs dentistry, anesthesiology, sedation, perio process cases, and ortho and PDS, which will have its own dedicated wing. So we have these big, large and surgical specialty hubs, one in Greensboro, major city, one in High Point City and one in Winston-Salem, a major city.
00:17:24:23 – 00:17:46:15
Dr. Ali Shazib
And around each of these three hubs, we will have about ten community practices through acquisitions, primarily, and some of them may be through the nobles that we build, but about 70% are going to be around acquisitions to reach a total of 275 operators. That is what we need for 60 students over four years. But 240 students are going to be residents.
00:17:46:15 – 00:18:11:00
Dr. Ali Shazib
So that’s how we calculate our growth. In the community. But we have to your point, what is radically different is we have zero student clinics per base. So our campus building is all simulation, digital dentistry lab, 3D printing, exo CAD feature practice, which is like a dental practice that looks like the practice with 2030, and all the haptics labs that we have.
00:18:11:02 – 00:18:14:23
Dr. Ali Shazib
That’s that’s our campus and classrooms and learning.
00:18:14:23 – 00:18:17:04
Dr. Richard Offutt
So there’s no dental faculty practice.
00:18:17:04 – 00:18:19:07
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Within the confines of the Auburn School of Dentistry.
00:18:19:07 – 00:18:21:23
Dr. Richard Offutt
That’s it for faculty. They’re out in those clinics.
00:18:22:02 – 00:18:42:04
Dr. Ali Shazib
All over this faculty practice. So all of it is faculty practice. The way our faculty is compensated is like a faculty practice, compensation. So everywhere they are, they are the site director, and them and the manager together ensure they’re aligned with the HPU philosophy of care and all the other interesting operating process.
00:18:42:06 – 00:18:51:06
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So if I’m a student and I’m getting to where it’s time to start treating patients, you’re going to put me in one of these acquired practices. And what happens.
00:18:51:08 – 00:19:17:17
Dr. Ali Shazib
Now? So you’ve already gone through that for a year or two because you’re spending half a day a week in these practices, learning all the support roles, running the morning huddles and all that stuff and looking at the scheduling. So by the time our students are in their second year, they’ve learned how to, administer local anesthesia, they’ve been credentialed with epic and CPR and all the necessary, that tactics, about history and exam and all that stuff.
00:19:17:19 – 00:19:49:05
Dr. Ali Shazib
They’ve likely done that at some capacity as an assistant in the practice. So the goal will be then, group of students know more than one faculty for every three students. So in traditional dental school models, you have a base of maybe 8 or 10 opportunities. And one faculty in our sort of, model, the goal is intimate learning environments so that you’re in one practice, maybe eight opportunities, and you have one dentist, the attending, the clinician, the site director, and then you have a D4, a D3 that are sort of running one chair each.
00:19:49:10 – 00:20:14:15
Dr. Ali Shazib
And an aged resident, and the aged resident is a graduate, you know, a dentist who’s learning more complex. Scope of dentistry. So there’s no more than 3 to 4 learners under the direction provision of a faculty. The faculty is responsible ultimately for the classification and assignment of the patients to the people, that are under the supervision of the learners that are under the supervision of the dentist.
00:20:14:15 – 00:20:27:19
Dr. Ali Shazib
So if I was a, you know, the supervisor, I had three students with me based on their skill set levels. I would assign my schedule to them, but I would be responsible for the delivery of care at the quality of the care that is committed by at the site director.
00:20:27:20 – 00:20:37:19
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So I’m a five year grad, of of the Workman School of Dentistry. Five, five years out. Ric’s a fifth year grad out of another school. How are we different?
00:20:37:21 – 00:20:58:18
Dr. Ali Shazib
So the the hope is that the Workman School of Dental Medicine grad is not a cookie cutter grad. We hope that they’re cross-pollinated across a career domains. I hope that, you know, I don’t know 40% RC and then the other 1,015% distributed equally are so that we have a very broad pollination of thought leaders, and movers and shakers.
00:20:58:18 – 00:21:08:03
Dr. Ali Shazib
I think these are the most risk, I guess tolerant or have a high appetite for risk students. We have in our class like smart.
00:21:08:05 – 00:21:10:01
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
They take that risk. Yeah.
00:21:10:03 – 00:21:32:04
Dr. Ali Shazib
They took risks. Right. And I think who likes risks. And most of the people who love risks are entrepreneurs or or they’re people who are looking to not fit in that that cookie cutter model, if you will. So I think likely from the, one year alumni comparison between our grads and other grads, I grads will have a lot more real life exposure.
00:21:32:04 – 00:22:02:21
Dr. Ali Shazib
They would have done a lot more, clinical experience management experience. They would have been able to develop the confidence of networking and connecting with movers and shakers in our field. Through our various connections and our board of advisors. The commitment of our Board of Advisors, which, includes CEOs of companies like sprint, Ray Revere Partners, which is a private equity fund for oral health, from lots of other leaders across DSLs, robot robotics and, material sciences.
00:22:03:03 – 00:22:20:23
Dr. Ali Shazib
The goal is that our learners have enough exposure to be able to thrive in whatever environment they want to go into, and not go back and say, oh, I wish, you know, they taught us digital dentistry, more because now every practice I’ve interviewed had, they require, proficiency in using. And I tell you.
00:22:21:01 – 00:22:36:12
Dr. Richard Offutt
It’s almost going to be it’s almost going to be the flip side, your graduate. What’s going to come out, your graduates are going to come out with, with, with these views of how practice should be and then they’re going to go out there and do a lot of dental practices and go, oh, man, I’m riding the dinosaur here.
00:22:36:14 – 00:22:59:17
Dr. Richard Offutt
And you know, so it’s going to be real interesting, I think, to see, you know, how the culture works and, and, and it’ll be exciting, right? I mean, you know, to see, see where your kids are going and what they’re doing and, and, and they’ll have to express tolerance for many of the other, dentists out there, guys and gals who, don’t have the, the technology background that they have.
00:22:59:17 – 00:23:21:16
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
But at the same time, I think you’re also going to see, there’s a overwhelming void for folks who have entrepreneurial experience. Doctor. Yeah. Doctor off and I ran different things in the dental space. And so we have had our hands in other things. You just don’t see that. You don’t see docs who understand, you know, the business acumen.
00:23:21:16 – 00:23:38:11
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
You know, you’re saying, well accomplished doctors now going to MBA programs to get that experience. But now if you can put that in your curriculum, you can train graduates to come out with that, understand entrepreneurial things, understand the business side. You’re revolutionizing the profession. In my opinion.
00:23:38:13 – 00:23:39:04
Dr. Richard Offutt
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:23:39:06 – 00:23:53:02
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
And and doing it still in that four year model two, we like to ask guys, you know what mistake did you make early in your career that you learn from? And what piece of advice would you give Doc’s from that mistake in your learning experience?
00:23:53:04 – 00:24:22:07
Dr. Ali Shazib
You know, so I think the, mistake that, that I often think about, in my journey through life and not necessarily in this role that I’m in right now, is is having an important realization of emotional intelligence. And I think a lot of times in our life, we are chasing after a goal that is numerical or quantitative.
00:24:22:07 – 00:24:51:21
Dr. Ali Shazib
It could be a grade, it could be a salary, it could be, a gold medal or whatever accolade it is. I think I was led to understand the importance of emotional intelligence, which is really having, the ability to understand human emotions and interactions and the effects of those that can happen, when you’re dealing with people in teams.
00:24:51:23 – 00:25:15:20
Dr. Ali Shazib
And I think if I would say this to anybody that is in health care or any sort of aspect in life where you deal with people is those people that are extremely successful from those that are successful. What separates the two is the astute understanding and mastery of emotional intelligence. And, you know, that includes how you listen verbally and non-verbally.
00:25:15:20 – 00:25:46:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
That includes body language, that includes, talking slowly and listening. And I think all those things, create immense impact and success and, and I think if you have emotional intelligence and EQ and you’ve got a strong passion and dream that you don’t ever negotiate for, that combination makes, any goal in life become true. The unrealistic time unrealistic thing might be time, but it may not be the achievement of it.
00:25:46:08 – 00:26:02:11
Dr. Ali Shazib
And that’s something that I truly believe in my life. If I had, I guess, emphasize more on EQ than than Scholastic, results or material achievement. You know, I think I have an understanding of that would help a lot of other people.
00:26:02:13 – 00:26:32:11
Dr. Richard Offutt
This is phenomenal. You know, dental education has gotten, extraordinarily out of reach for a lot of people just because of the the sheer burden of of the cost. With the model that you have with, HP, HP, you health, and its ability for those practices to, to basically be self-sustaining, has it been able to modify the financial burden on your students?
00:26:32:13 – 00:26:47:09
Dr. Richard Offutt
As a result of that, because it’s more of a self-sustained clinic in, versus the model that the three of us came through, probably you came through where that, you know, without state subsidy, the model doesn’t work. So can you can you address that?
00:26:47:11 – 00:27:19:16
Dr. Ali Shazib
Yes. And I love the question. And Doctor King, Kevin and I have a bet on this is, the way we have structured our, financial model. Is that the tuition fee of the student, like most schools, the tuition of the students supports the clinical enterprise, meaning the practices are not able to carry their own overhead, and they need to be supplemented through the tuition going, the fee going higher, or state supplement or grants or other revenue, that are outside of patient care.
00:27:19:18 – 00:27:45:15
Dr. Ali Shazib
Our model is dependent on each practice being its cost center or profit center, if you will, meaning being self-sustainable. And then that way, our hypothesis is, by the time our graduates, students graduate, because we just have our first year class and right now, and they’re not yet, you know, producing and practice and generating clinical revenue as they learn and getting their education.
00:27:45:17 – 00:28:19:02
Dr. Ali Shazib
Our hypothesis is that we hope that the four years of tuition that they they’re paying for, ultimately through clinical productivity in the clinical enterprise, being self-sustainable allows us to reduce the overall burden of tuition or somehow to get them a credit for their work that would reduce tuition through the success of the clinical enterprise, so that the burden of debt is not always increasing, but we find a way where we can actually find a break to the increase in tuition.
00:28:19:02 – 00:28:26:12
Dr. Ali Shazib
That happens almost everywhere every year. Or what other schools may do is increase enrollment. Okay, that’s increased to 80 students. That’s hundred students.
00:28:26:13 – 00:28:26:19
Dr. Richard Offutt
Yeah.
00:28:27:00 – 00:28:46:21
Dr. Ali Shazib
So our hope is that the clinical enterprise and the clinical education, through its reality-TV lens and through its self-sustainable fiscal, sustainable model, is going to relieve the burden off of the financial obligations for pursuing dental education. And we hope that that that will demonstrate the ability for.
00:28:46:23 – 00:28:47:16
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
It to kind of.
00:28:47:17 – 00:28:52:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
The years that to hit in one year of clinical practice like that would be the ultimate wow, you know, so.
00:28:52:11 – 00:29:07:16
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Is it appropriate to say that the student is kind of paying into it and there is a possible credit to what they’ve paid? So let’s say I paid $100,000 and we figure out that it’s this era of profitability. You’re going to credit that student $20,000 at some point, time to be like.
00:29:07:16 – 00:29:08:12
Dr. Richard Offutt
I thought maybe.
00:29:08:13 – 00:29:41:02
Dr. Ali Shazib
Nobody thought, yeah, yeah. It’s obviously not official. It’s not obviously, a model we have put out there. But I would just say the idea behind it is if they’re ethical, professional, seeking education and they’re productive, how can we make productivity count in a way that decreases debt? And yes, whatever avenue allows us to achieve that, we want it to be, a contribution towards, reduction of debt and not the trends we see right now, which is there’s.
00:29:41:07 – 00:30:01:21
Dr. Richard Offutt
How about this when, when you when HPU, health has, you said you want it’s going to have 270 operators to support a class of 60 thereabouts. And what’s interesting to me is the is going to be the culture that you have to have. It has to you have to have the same culture in each of those.
00:30:01:22 – 00:30:17:01
Dr. Richard Offutt
You know, you said we’re going to have 10 or 12 practices around Winston-Salem or in Greensboro or whatever. So so, you know, you almost have to have, Vice President of culture, you know, that’s going to make sure that the culture in each clinic.
00:30:17:01 – 00:30:18:03
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Give to that same philosophy.
00:30:18:03 – 00:30:32:07
Dr. Richard Offutt
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Is, is compatible now. So where are you going with that? I found it hard enough when I practiced across 3 or 4 offices to have the same culture in 3 or 4 offices. Talk to us a little bit about that.
00:30:32:09 – 00:30:51:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
I mean, I, you know, it seems like we’re having a conversation here in our, sort of drawing room figuring out strategies for these situations because they’re such important, topics. Culture, community connectivity. I think they’re all the three C’s that have a feedback loop with each other, because if you don’t have enough culture, you don’t have culture.
00:30:51:08 – 00:31:18:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
If you have community connectivity and communication platforms that everybody is working on, too. So sometimes the information lag or lack thereof is that it erodes culture. And then the other aspect is being very intentional about a bidirectional multidirectional relationship with your entire community. Because we have micro communities all across, if you will, the mothership, which would be the campus.
00:31:18:13 – 00:31:43:02
Dr. Ali Shazib
So how do you bring enough campus into each practice, and how do you bring all the practice environments into, our, into, into our main, into our main campus? And it’s not an easy task. I think, you know, having a chief wellness officer is something some organizations have done. It change management champion who connects with each culture champion from each practice.
00:31:43:02 – 00:32:07:23
Dr. Ali Shazib
It has been demonstrated. You know, I think the chief dental officer and the director of clinical operations set the operational language or the operating system, but the operating system is only that as successful as a cultural system you put in place, because there needs to be a way that everybody can resonate to, and there needs to be that passion for the experience we’re providing that will bring alignment for culture.
00:32:08:01 – 00:32:34:14
Dr. Ali Shazib
So we have a couple of things that we have done to address that. One is, everybody, has a rigorous onboarding experience. When I say rigorous, it means they see the HPU experience to see the wisdom experience, and then they see the practice experience. And then continuously every 3 to 6 months. There are touchpoints that are built on activities, healthy competitions of doing good, values reminders.
00:32:34:14 – 00:33:07:11
Dr. Ali Shazib
So every week there’s a recognition of one of our values, okay. Who’s done something very compassionate or collaborative or of a high integrity. So we are recognized champions from our teams. And then anybody who is, in our team, in management, or director level or has any responsibility of personnel oversight, we develop their leadership skills, internally and externally through partnerships with the Leadership Institute, where we send, a lot of our, the faculty and staff, for leadership.
00:33:07:14 – 00:33:09:20
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Like, you’ve talked to Doctor Workman before.
00:33:09:22 – 00:33:37:03
Dr. Ali Shazib
And that’s where, you know, Chick-Fil-A, Chick-Fil-A sends its leadership teams there. A lot of the healthcare systems do. Heartland dental does. Majority of the dental school deans go there? Adia has a partnership. So, those are the some areas of leadership development that we focus on. And then the other part is, having, a performance evaluation system that’s not just once a year, annual performance review, and then it creates the surprise.
00:33:37:05 – 00:33:48:23
Dr. Ali Shazib
The goal is to have active, frequent touchpoints that are informal check ins every two to 2 to 4 weeks. And I think there was a Harvard Business Review talking about 11 days or 14 days.
00:33:49:00 – 00:33:51:12
Dr. Richard Offutt
For the for the feedback for the work that.
00:33:51:14 – 00:33:51:18
Dr. Ali Shazib
Wrote.
00:33:51:18 – 00:33:53:01
Dr. Richard Offutt
This about the loop.
00:33:53:04 – 00:34:14:00
Dr. Ali Shazib
Yeah, right. So the goal is active loops. So never something that was was a shock to the employee. And and being about a bidirectional feedback. So being able to understand what’s the sentiment of employee engagement. Because I think that’s the most important element or factor or variable to look at is employee engagement. How many employees are going to say that?
00:34:14:00 – 00:34:27:07
Dr. Ali Shazib
I would recommend this place to my friends and family, either for the health care or for employability, right? That’s the biggest compliment you could receive is your own team members hopefully raving about where they work and referring their family.
00:34:27:13 – 00:34:45:07
Dr. Richard Offutt
Yeah, well, let me do one follow up question. You know, when you do a de novo, you control the culture from the get go when you’re acquiring practices. And so let’s say you, you visit these two doctors to my left here and you decide that that one of the, you know, one of them wants to sell their practice.
00:34:45:08 – 00:35:10:22
Dr. Richard Offutt
You know, you’re interested in it. How do you evaluate the doc, the existing doctor and the exist for for the cultural fit? Or do you just assume that you have to teach your culture to them? Is it because your culture is innovative for dentistry and, and and there’s not going to be many 40 to 50 year old docs out there that automatically have your a similar culture in their practices.
00:35:10:22 – 00:35:21:20
Dr. Richard Offutt
So I’m just curious, how do you go about presenting to a doctor that you’re going to acquire his practice about the cultural requirements, if you will, of being part of HPU health?
00:35:21:21 – 00:35:52:23
Dr. Ali Shazib
Spot on. Again, a phenomenal question. The answer it’s not easy. We’ve had to say no respectfully, more than we’ve had to proceed forward. And a lot of it does go, and most of it’s been because of cultural, or philosophical differences. And we have to set a, fairly fine filter of what we think is the the aperture has to be really fine for defining what, cultural compatibility is.
00:35:52:23 – 00:36:21:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
I think there’s a lot of culture that the practices will bring into our ecosystem, and we have to be accepting of that. We also have to accept the values of the existing practice. But then we have to be very bold upfront and intentional about our culture, our values, our way of doing things upfront. And I think, you know, if I learn from our mistakes or learning lessons, I think we were not bold about that.
00:36:21:08 – 00:36:23:06
Dr. Ali Shazib
And some examples we had where.
00:36:23:09 – 00:36:25:07
Dr. Richard Offutt
It comes down to saying, this is who I am.
00:36:25:10 – 00:36:59:13
Dr. Ali Shazib
And this is who we are. And I think we were a bit shy of doing that because we were just throwing new into this sort of area of going and seeing what’s the interest of being part of health. Now, after learning through the feedback we received through our acquisitions, the importance is being very clear and concise and honest and transparent about the why and how we’re going to do it, and then let that simmer and be, you know, processed by, you know, the interested party and then then, you know, following up and having a frank discussion.
00:36:59:13 – 00:37:21:08
Dr. Ali Shazib
I think when we don’t have those discussions openly and we don’t discuss the difficult things like exit clauses, contingencies, and we sort of skirt around that. Then the the element of trust becomes questionable and then that can disrupt the culture. And I think the basic framework of culture is trust. And then being able to take it from there.
00:37:21:08 – 00:37:36:19
Dr. Ali Shazib
And, and if you said what you’re going to do and you’re doing it, or if you’re not, you’re explaining why, then people will follow you. And if not, then, then obviously then what happens is sometimes with acquisitions, the culture and compatibility can lead to turnover, attrition and the other things that happen.
00:37:36:21 – 00:37:55:04
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
And I thank you. Thank you. So I would kind of say, you know, what we are what our organization is simplified dentistry. You know, essentially what we’re doing is we’re trying to allow docs to go from good to great. We’re trying to get, you know, what we would characterize a seasoned but aspirational docs, you know, to advance their careers.
00:37:55:06 – 00:38:11:09
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
It seems like your grads are and your students are in this aspirational population, who is going to have a lot of skills to be able to apply it? You know, we’d love to have your guys kind of participating in this, as much as possible. If they want to sign up for us, we’d love to have them.
00:38:11:11 – 00:38:14:13
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
My question if we can help them. Yeah. I mean, I hope we can.
00:38:14:17 – 00:38:15:19
Dr. Richard Offutt
Maybe they can help us.
00:38:15:19 – 00:38:16:16
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
They can help us, but we.
00:38:16:16 – 00:38:21:06
Dr. Richard Offutt
Can provide, I think. Yeah, I think, Dean, that that maybe your students can help us.
00:38:21:08 – 00:38:36:19
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah. We can provide input, and and help answer. You know, these guys are aspirational. They’re looking at different things. Now, we can also be a resource in the community. You know, your student can ask us a question and get an answer, and then he can take you back to, do you guys. And we can collaborate in there.
00:38:36:19 – 00:38:55:11
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
I think that would be a great thing. But the question I ask everybody, we ask everybody at the end of our our podcast is with simplified dentistry, what advice would you give the population to make dentistry a little simpler? Just to simplify the thing. You know, I know you talked about emotional health and things like that, but what would you say?
00:38:55:13 – 00:39:31:17
Dr. Ali Shazib
I think it’s, alignment on vision and ensuring that you have systems in place that are not people dependent, but process dependent, and that you have developed the ability to measure progress through ways that your team can see as well, so that dentistry becomes fun, it becomes more predictable, but it also is able to deliver those amazing experiences that I think most of us get excited about is when you can give somebody a smile, and they may have been dealing with a very, difficult phase in their life, and we were out there to help them and regain confidence and trust in society.
00:39:31:19 – 00:39:45:09
Dr. Ali Shazib
And I think that’s the important part to make dentistry simplified is alignment to vision, alignment of values, of who we are and developing systems that make that y consistent and, and, and very much, effective.
00:39:45:11 – 00:39:58:08
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah. Well, thank you very much for your time. We appreciate, I think, what you guys are doing at High Point is fantastic. My guys, you know, I think it’s I think it’s revolutionary. And, you know, we look forward to kind of following this and hopefully being a little more involved with you guys.
00:39:58:10 – 00:40:15:12
Dr. Ali Shazib
Our invitation is, you know, is officially, you know, always open for you guys to come visit and spend time with us and our students and our faculty. So, happy to, you know, touch base and figure out a time for you guys to spend time with our students. We’ve got 1 or 2 podcasters in our class. Oh, wow.
00:40:15:14 – 00:40:33:20
Dr. Ali Shazib
Social media influencers. So I think, they love these opportunities when they can do a bit of a reality TV lens show or Q&A session. So, you know, love to have you, on our forum and have you do a Q&A with our students in a live sort of direct Q&A session, and you can have it on your podcast.
00:40:33:20 – 00:40:48:11
Dr. Ali Shazib
So we can do it both ways. But I think, you know, I’m saying whatever I’m saying to believe what I’m saying. Why don’t you meet with our students right now in their six months of being in our program? Have a live Q&A with them, and that would be fun.
00:40:48:13 – 00:40:52:07
Dr. Richard Offutt
That’d be. That’d be more fun than work, for sure. Yeah, right.
00:40:52:09 – 00:40:52:12
Dr. Ali Shazib
Last.
00:40:52:14 – 00:40:54:22
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Nothing to be afraid of what you asked for.
00:40:55:00 – 00:41:12:23
Dr. Richard Offutt
Oh, no. No, not because now that poster lets you. It lets you think back to when you were making decisions and say, was I that alive or not? Yeah, right. That was I that spot on or not, you know, and and anyway, I appreciate your comment in that perspective too. Yeah.
00:41:13:03 – 00:41:15:11
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Thank you very much. We appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you.
00:41:15:13 – 00:41:16:23
Dr. Ali Shazib
Absolutely. Thank you so much.