December 17, 2024


Episode featuring Jonathan White, CPA – Dental Financial Strategies

📋 Episode Description

Join Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan and Dr. Richard Offut as they discuss critical financial strategies with Jonathan White, CPA. This episode covers essential year-end tax planning, equipment purchases, and DSO considerations for dental practices.

👤 Guest Expert Profile

Jonathan White brings extensive expertise as:

  • Leader of a dental-specific CPA firm serving over 300 practices
  • Former audit supervisor
  • Eight years of experience in the Marine Corps Reserve
  • Specialist in dental practice financial management

⏱️ Episode Navigation

  • 00:01 – Introduction and background
  • 01:34 – Q4 planning strategies
  • 05:21 – Vehicle expenses discussion
  • 16:23 – Retirement planning
  • 31:39 – Equipment purchases
  • 41:28 – Technology in accounting
  • 45:22 – DSO considerations

💡 Core Strategies & Implementation

Year-End Planning

  • Early Q4 planning importance
  • Financial projection strategies
  • Tax implication considerations
  • Purchase timing decisions

Equipment and Purchases

  • Basis implications understanding
  • Cash vs. financing decisions
  • Long-term payment planning
  • Tax benefit analysis

Practice Management

  • Staff costs (27% post-COVID trend)
  • Hygiene cost increases
  • Insurance reimbursement impacts
  • Profitability strategies

Documentation Requirements

  • Vehicle expense tracking
  • Mileage log maintenance
  • Business use verification
  • Expense documentation

DSO Considerations

  • Retirement timing
  • Valuation factors
  • Cash vs. equity decisions
  • Lifestyle impacts

🎯 Practice Insights

Staffing Costs

  • Traditional 25% target
  • Current market trends
  • Hygiene cost management
  • Profitability adjustments

Technology Integration

  • Practice management systems
  • Financial dashboard usage
  • Real-time tracking tools
  • Reporting capabilities

Planning Guidelines

Equipment Decisions:

  • CPA consultation timing
  • S-Corp considerations
  • Financing evaluations
  • Tax impact analysis

Family Employment:

  • Role documentation
  • Compensation guidelines
  • Retirement planning
  • Compliance requirements

Vehicle Management:

  • Mileage tracking
  • Usage documentation
  • Business purpose records
  • Compliance guidelines

Practice Valuation

EBITDA Considerations:

  • Valuation metrics
  • DSO negotiations
  • Profitability tracking
  • Growth monitoring

DSO Sale Planning:

  • Timing strategies
  • Cash considerations
  • Equity evaluation
  • Transition planning

🤝 Additional Resources

  • Contact Jonathan W. White CPA PLLC
  • Join Simplify Dentistry community
  • Visit simplifydds.com

Topics: dental accounting, tax planning, practice management, dental finance, DSO valuation, practice profitability

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Transcript

00:01
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Good afternoon. Welcome to the Simplify Dentistry Podcast. Simplify is a community of like minded dentists and dental professionals that discusses, explores, asks questions and offers solutions to everyday clinical and operational questions. The Simplify Podcast is a forum where we have interviews with industry leading experts and discuss a wide range of topics from clinical to operational to financial management. I’m Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan along with my co host Dr. Richard Offut. We’d like to introduce today’s guest, Jonathan White, CPA. Jonathan White is Founder and President of Jonathan W. White CPA PLLC, a dental specific firm in Charlotte, North Carolina that services over 300 practices across all specialties. The firm offers comprehensive services including tax compliance, financial planning, accounting and retirement services. His professional journey includes serving as an auditor supervisor at the regional audit firm where he audited financial institutions and retirement plans.

00:52
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Additionally, held the position of Tax Director at a consulting firm working with closely held businesses. Jonathan also served eight years in the United States Marine Corps Reserve and held numerous leadership positions throughout his career. Jonathan, thank you for being with us today and we look forward to discussing lots of strategies to help our listeners with their year end tax planning and things that they should be looking at.

01:14
Jonathan White
Thank you and I appreciate both of you for having me on. You know, hopefully this will be very informative for your listeners and especially as this is the time of year we’re actually filming this right after tax season ends. So your CPAs are probably worn out and they’re ready for your year end questions to get started and really start focusing on what is important for the end of 24.

01:34
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So Jonathan, what should our listeners be thinking about going into the end of the year and what kind of plans should they be making for Q4 and looking at what they’re going to do for next year or is it too late to make changes for Q4?

01:47
Jonathan White
Yeah, so very important right now to really start looking at Q4, not too late. There are some things that potentially you could have missed, but very few. A lot of the planning unfortunately happens in Q1 of 25 when someone brings their information into their accountant who they’ve not looked at all year and then get these big surprises and then your planning is very limited. So as you head into fourth quarter, the biggest thing that I see as we onboard new clients, especially towards year end looking for planning is they don’t have good underlying numbers. And so the number one thing for your CPA to truly be able to plan you is the underlying numbers have to be solid. Right? Because if they’re running projections and PM off of numbers that aren’t really vetted. I’ve seen a lot of mistakes there.

02:31
Jonathan White
So getting good quality numbers to be able to, whether that accountant’s the one vetting those numbers or you’re feeding them to them is kind of the bedrock. And then once you do that is you really need to start working through a projection with that cpa. And usually it involves kind of them pulling together all your information and kind of sitting down and walking through those. Some of the key items we’re going to talk about. I always say there’s a toolbox for almost every dentist. There’s probably eight or nine things almost every dentist in the country should be doing at some form in their career. But then there’s some that could be specific to you or maybe we’re going a little heavier this year than not. So all of those things, you really want to sit down and get a projection in fourth quarter.

03:12
Jonathan White
Fourth quarter is definitely not too late. It’s better if you’ve looked at it mid year because if you’re way up in your practice, and that’s one of the things we do, and when we’re looking at financials, we don’t really work with a practice unless we are actually involved in your accounting. And that is one of the biggest reasons is I can see in June that you’re up 30% and we need to start making some changes. So definitely not too late, but now is the time over the next month.

03:36
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So.

03:36
Dr. Richard Offut
Jonathan, what an amazing introduction. Thank you, Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan. I probably should leave the room, but let’s get kind of granular on. What information do you want from the dentist? I mean, what do you want? I mean, is back of the envelope okay, or do you need very accurate, well prepared and well documented data?

03:56
Jonathan White
Yeah, if you want good projections that are actually going to hold up, you’re going to need well documented data. Back of the envelope will get you close, but it’s not going to get you to where I think you want to be. Kind of walk you through kind of our process. So we’re usually taking your financials and forecasting those out for the remainder of the year. We’re looking through all your payroll to make sure that you’ve bounced, You’ve matched your 401k and any adjustments you should make there, we’re looking at any family on payroll, anyone that we should be adjusting there. So back of the envelope, and a lot of clients do that, you know, they say, hey, I feel like I’m up. Unfortunately, they manage by the bank account. Right. And Ultimately that’s not the way to manage a business and get good projections.

04:35
Jonathan White
So you do need a much more granular detail. But if you’re keeping your own books, then your CPA probably needs to work through those books and make sure that adjustments are made. If the CPA is keeping the books, which is usually the best method, then if they’re keeping up good accurate books, then that should definitely funnel your projections.

04:53
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Do you find that there are actually docs out there that are keeping their own books, keeping their own P&LS and then kind of coming to fourth quarter and being like, all right, I need my CPA to straighten all this out? Or do you. Do you see most people actually using a dental specific CPA who’s running their P and Ls and things like that?

05:10
Jonathan White
I would say the majority of clients that at least we pick up are using a cpa, not always dental specific, that are involved in their books on a month to month basis. We once in a while we pick up, we just picked up a really large practice where the doc was running their own books and the CPA was making adjustments. A year end and literally we’re going to have three years of amendments. So that’s always the worst method because there’s a handful of doctors that are no accounting backwards and forwards and their books are going to be right. But y’all know as well as I do that just doesn’t happen that often. And sometimes too a CPA trying to unwind all that and a quick projection also the things get missed. So major we see at least a CPA involved.

05:53
Jonathan White
Typically a dental specific CPA is best. But our firm, we don’t work with clients where just bring us our book. So once you transition to us, we’re doing that method where we’re in your books on a consistent basis.

06:06
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Jonathan is my CPA and has been my CPA since he started. And I can tell you the last thing you want is me to be doing my own books. And you should see what I hand Jonathan. I hand Jonathan a stack of stuff and literally it’s a shoebox.

06:22
Jonathan White
Shoebox.

06:22
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
It’s not quite a shoebox. It can be scanned and sent to him. But it literally like how I categorize things. It’s on a piece of paper basically. And it’s like, this is what I think this is what I think it is. Jonathan humors me by taking all of that and all of my banking information and consolidates it and categorizes it correctly. But to Your point? Dentists doing it themselves can only hurt themselves. I think. I think you will miss so many things. You open yourself up for audits, there’s all kinds of problems there. You touched one thing with being a dental specific cpa. You know, you hear a lot of guys who will be using, you know, this CPA is really great.

07:04
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
I like him, you know, he does my buddy’s books and my buddy is a contractor or, you know, they have a chain of grocery stores or things like that. And I would think that there are lots of things that get missed when you’re not using somebody who actually understands your business and understands what the ramifications are. The tax code on dentistry. Specifically, why use a dental specific cpa?

07:31
Jonathan White
Yeah, that’s a good question. And the answer is I’m a dental specific cpa. So of course you should always use the dental specific cpa. But no, I think it’s more than that. And I kind of thought about that question because we had talked about it the other day and I really stepped back and I said, well, you know, really that CPA is making a commitment to your industry. So I think first and foremost that firm, that person has kind of said, hey, I’m going to spend time and learn your industry. So to me that person is probably a little more committed to working directly and understanding what you’re doing. But second, as you mentioned, it is impossible to be a jack of all trades.

08:06
Jonathan White
And when I came out of school, my first job was working at a firm that we audited banks and credit unions. And I learned from that senior partner, he would only audit billion dollar or more credit unions and built a massive business on that. He actually wrote the rules for credit unions at the technical level for the AICPA because that’s all he ever kind of worked in. And really I learned from him was no matter what that lane is, pick it and become really good in it. And we’re seeing more and more of that in the CPA world, not just in dental, but in a lot of kind of niching down. And I think using a dental specific cpa, they’re going to know your business, right? So what I hate is the year end and I’m probably going to make some Patterson guys mad.

08:47
Jonathan White
But the year end guys who come in and say, hey, I can get 179 on this, right? If I buy this $100,000 piece of equipment, well, you lose 60 cent on the dollar, right? To save 40 cent for a piece of equipment that may not make your business better. So the first questions I always ask is, you know, will this make the customer experience better, Will it enhance patient care and can we make money on it? And if the answer is no to those items, then maybe we should say pay the tax and take 60 cent and invest in something. So I think having that dental specific CPA who understands your practice management system. I’ll tell you at a story here.

09:21
Jonathan White
Recently we picked up a practice and we looked at the returns and we obviously knew that the revenue was wrong and simply because when we pulled the practice management reports, net collections didn’t, they were so far off and they had made deposits into the business that were not actual receipts and they just end up as paying tax on it. And so we as dental specific CPAs and I can’t speak for all of us, but generally you’re going to find they’re involved in your practice management. They’re going to get your practice management report and look at your doctor days. Dr.

09:52
Jonathan White
Chukan mentioned that, you know, he is our client so he can kind of give you the experience of we have a dashboard and that dashboard lays out the production per doctor day and the number of doctor days you worked and hygiene production and all those analytics are not going to be, not going to replace a practice management consultant necessarily for you, but it identifies trends and problems within your practice to at least throws up that alert red flag where if you just have a general CPA who is sending you QuickBooks reports, you’re going to miss all of that.

10:21
Dr. Richard Offut
Tell me this, you know, when you work with specific dental specific clients, you know, what is the question that you like to get? Doc calls you up and says jonathan, and then he asks you a question. What is that question?

10:38
Jonathan White
Yes, that is any question involving them spending a lot of money. And that can be investments, right? Or before they sell a piece of real estate or before they bring on a partner. So a lot of times, And I think CPAs in every industry will tell you that, tell you this, is we get the question or actually we get the result and ask how to fix it, right? Oh, I just sold this piece of property and I don’t want to pay tax on it. What should I do? Well, you could have done a 1031, but we didn’t talk about this three months prior.

11:06
Jonathan White
So I think any question that involves a significant financial transaction, if you’re involved with your cpa, whether it’s a practice or your personal side, you should be having that conversation probably with the financial advisor as well, especially if it’s big money. But from the strictly kind of accounting and tax standpoint, anything that is going to have a significance, especially on the tax side, we’d have prefer to have that question first. On the practice management side, it’s really looking at trying to change your practice. You know, a lot of times the thing that can be most impactful is dropping insurance. And so a lot of clients will come to us and say, should we drop insurance? Well, the short is we’d like to. We’d like to drop all insurance, but that’s not always practical.

11:46
Jonathan White
And so being able to guide them through either scaling down insurance or working with someone who’s good at help at negotiating PPOs, that’s something that question we would like to have more often and really think about their business, because that can add so much to the top line with actually seeing less patients.

12:02
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
You know, they said ADA just released something that came out, I think Yesterday I saw 36% of practitioners surveys survey dropped at least one network last year, and 55% of practitioners reported that insurance reimbursement was the biggest stress in their practice. Which is crazy to me because the biggest stress on my practice is hygienist.

12:26
Dr. Richard Offut
Well, and the employment thereof.

12:28
Jonathan White
Right?

12:28
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Correct. Correct.

12:29
Dr. Richard Offut
That’s right.

12:29
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
I love hygienists. Don’t take those the wrong way.

12:33
Dr. Richard Offut
It’s just the gymnastics of being able to staff that role has become difficult, and it’s become even more difficult since COVID So what are your thoughts there? I mean, what’s your idea on how should the hygiene work in your practice in terms of overhead and responsibility to the practice?

12:54
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Like, are you seeing more? We were talking to the Cane Waters guys earlier today, and they were saying staffing should be 25%. And I was like, well, how can you say that with what hygiene is doing right now and what staffing costs are. Are you adjusting for that or are you saying, hey, doc, you got to pass the fees on or you got to raise your production, or what are you saying?

13:15
Jonathan White
Yeah, so key there. Well, if they can see 25%, you must be in some rural area, because you’re not really seeing that across the board right now. And hygiene being the key. So if you’re in network insurance and your reimbursement, let’s say it’s $100 for a profit and that hygienist cost you $55 an hour and not 35 like she did pre Covid. There’s. Or he cost you pre Covid. There’s no way unless you can pass that along to the. To Your patients. And if you’re in network with that insurance, there’s really. You’re kind of stuck. So you’re going to see staff cost increase. And that’s what we’ve seen. You know, prior to Covid, you’d ideally like staff cost for hygienists to be about a third. Right. So a third of their production is the. And that’s. That would be everything.

13:55
Jonathan White
So that’s payroll, taxes, benefits. And now that number is creeping up. So if we just do back of the envelope numbers is if a pro fees $100, let’s just use round numbers. And that hygienist cost us 50 all in. They’re getting 50% of their production. Doctors don’t get that.

14:10
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah.

14:11
Jonathan White
So when you look at that perspective, it is a challenge. But hygiene, you know, it is the blood of the practice. Right. It’s how you get your, you know, appointments, you see your people, you get production from there. So it’s required. The only way to be able to do that is if you’re not network and truly be able to raise and pass that fee along. But I don’t know how much of that you can pass along before patients start pushing back. So I would think traditionally in a GP practice, we receive about 27% all in benefits and everything for staff costs. That’s everyone. I’m seeing that number tick up a little bit, and a lot of that is in the hygiene. But even your assistants, they’re not as inexpensive as they were, say, three or four years ago.

14:52
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Sure. And going back to the dental specific CPA and the questions that they get, I can tell you, for one, I don’t do anything without asking Jonathan. I don’t buy a car for my kids. I don’t refinance anything. I don’t do anything without at least getting his input on the front end. A lot of times I don’t like what he says, but I do listen to him.

15:14
Jonathan White
And that’s the key, right, Is if I tell you what you want to hear all the time. I’m probably not a good advisor to you. And I think you talk about what kind of person are you looking to work with or firm you’re looking to work with, is you don’t want a yes man. Right? Any great leader doesn’t want to be surrounded by yes man. And so good, bad or indifferent, I’m always going to tell people what I think. I always tell people I’m an acquired taste, kind of like a fine wine. Some people love me, some people Don’t. But I’m going to tell you what I think. And, and at the end of the day, I think that’s very important because, you know, we get all kind of harebrained ideas that come in the door, you know, from clients.

15:48
Jonathan White
And so being able to tell them, hey, it’s not a great idea if you do it, at least we’ve warned you, is very important to kind of.

15:54
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Coming back to where we started this Q4, what are you advising? So let’s say you’ve been working with somebody from Q1, you did all the planning and things like that. But let’s say there are things that you guys haven’t talked about. What are you advising guys to make sure they’re doing, whether it’s retirement or, you know, different rules or other things or how they’re treating family. What would you advise somebody right now?

16:23
Jonathan White
Yeah, we had briefly touched on that earlier is there’s kind of that toolbox that I think most dentists should be using. And the number one thing, the largest thing you can do to defer tax and save is the retirement plan. And a well designed retirement plan for either 401k or if you got a souped up retirement plan, a cash balance is usually for a doctor over 50, the best way that they can put away money and save taxes upfront. There’s cost to run those plans, but they more than pay for themselves. If you’re doing that correctly, that’s usually your biggest. I want to call Hammer, right?

16:52
Jonathan White
So someone who’s got a very productive practice, they’re in their early to mid-50s running a cash balance plan, they may be able to put a couple hundred grand a year into that plan where they’re getting the predominant benefit from that. And then there’s a bunch of bread and butter items like hsa. So if you’re HSA eligible, it’s the only triple net tax benefit out there. It goes in tax free, it comes out tax free and it earns tax free. So those kinds of things which are small, definitely employing family and family, that’s key in your retirement plan as well.

17:23
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
How would you so talk, talk to us about that. How do you employ family? Do you just all of a sudden say, you know, I think my wife deserves $250,000 a year?

17:32
Jonathan White
No. And so that’s that part. It actually. Let’s talk about even Dr. Comp. Right? So most doctors run an S corporation, which means they need to have what they call reasonable compensation. So you can’t pay yourself 30 grand and take all dividends, you got to pay reasonable. And when your retirement plan, there’s something called your max retirement plan compensation. That number is indexed to inflation, so it goes up every year. But that number is, I think 345 for 2044 or 2024. So what that means is if you pay 345,000, when your TPA or your administrator is running those analysis, that is the max amount of salary that can be included in the computation. So if you paid yourself 400, it doesn’t make your retirement plan test any better.

18:13
Jonathan White
If you pay yourself less than that, then you potential your testing could cause you to pay staff more. So there is an optimal doctor retirement number and then staff. And when we say staff, we’re talking about your wife or your kids or your spouse on payroll. That should be reasonable to what they’re doing. Right. So kids are running your social media. Kids are, you know, helping around the office and stuff. So you can’t pay them $70,000 because that’d be considered unreasonable and hard to justify. So those salaries there, you should work with your CPA and kind of come up with what the duties are and then set a salary from there. At minimum, you’d like to have duties, especially for your spouse to at least have the max Deferred to the 401k plan.

18:53
Jonathan White
And then from there, if they’re doing additional duties, because we actually have seen spouses who made 200,000 because they were helping essentially the CEO of a very large practice. And it made sense to pay her that much based upon the retirement plan and her duties. But that’s uncommon sometimes. Usually you’re in that 30 to $50,000 range.

19:11
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So I hear a couple different things. Yeah, sometimes I’ll hear people say, well, what you do is you pay your wife obviously helps and works in your practice, but you pay her just enough to max out her retirement, and there’s just a little bit of peripheral cash. Then I’ll hear some people say, well, you do that, but you also pay her more compensation to justify that. Maybe she’s a front office administrator. Do you really want to do that or is it a benefit, a hindrance from a tax perspective to do that? And then kind of on kids, I’m asking you a bunch of questions, but on kids, is there a magic number? You say, okay, well, my kid’s 16, so 16, they should get their age times this, 18, their age times this.

19:57
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Is there a formula you look at or where do you come up with those numbers?

20:01
Jonathan White
Yeah, so there’s not necessarily a formula. There are a bunch of rules of thumb you will hear out there in the community and some CPAs will throw those out there if they’re sitting across from an auditor. And I used to audit banks for a living, so I kind of know that other side of the table you’ve got to be able to justify that number. And a rule of thumb wouldn’t be the justification. So you do want to be able to log those duties and have a job description that is commensurate with what you’re paying them. But there are some kind of strike or threshold you want to hit. Like if you want to fund their Roth IRA, then they need to make at least 6 or $7,000 to be able to fund their Roth IRA.

20:37
Jonathan White
And if you want to max 401k, then you do want to hit that say $30,000 threshold for a spouse to max that. Anything above that. Now, if you’re paying them for their duties, maybe helps with Social Security and Medicare in the future, but you are paying additional Social Security and Medicare tax on that. That there’s not really an additional benefit because if you’re both married, that income ends up on your same tax return. So you’re not really saving any taxes by going above that threshold. There could be other considerations too, outside of just strictly tax to pay more. But from that perspective, I don’t think paying them more necessarily accomplishes a big tax goal.

21:13
Dr. Richard Offut
So, Jonathan, a million years ago when you had to stuff statements and put stamps on the outside of envelopes, my 5 year old and 7 year old did that for my practices. And many times the stamps were in the wrong corner and the patients would bring them in and say, doc, did you really do this? And I’d go, no, but pretty good for a five year old, right? So talk a little bit about that. I mean, what are these age thresholds for employing children? And that would be my first question. The next question is dealing with automobiles within the business.

21:51
Jonathan White
Oh yeah, and that’s another big one. So the kind of, I guess, best benchmark for IRS tax cases for kids is around 7 years old. So if you’ve got a kid younger than seven years old, there’s really not a tax case out there that kind of supported that. There is one for seven. But you’re kind of hitting the nail on the head with duties is you don’t really stamp, you know, now that five year old would need to be able to run a social media channel.

22:15
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Right?

22:16
Jonathan White
So it does get a little more challenging.

22:19
Dr. Richard Offut
We did it on the playroom floor, you know, I mean, there was a stack of envelopes and stickers on the outside. First, it was printed on a dot matrix printer, so it was quite a while ago, but I’m sorry, go ahead.

22:32
Jonathan White
No, no. But you’re exactly right. So duties are important to kind of be able to support that. So at least as they get older, being able to have social media channels, and they’re probably more adept at working in social media than we ever would think of doing that. So that helps. And then, you know, as far as being able to actually have the kids in the practice, it is really important to support those. Sorry, what was your second part of that question?

22:59
Dr. Richard Offut
Second question was dealing with automobiles.

23:01
Jonathan White
Oh, yes, automobiles.

23:02
Dr. Richard Offut
So not airplanes and boats, but just automobiles.

23:05
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
I know how you deal with airplanes. I see guys dealing with airplanes and I can’t figure that one out.

23:10
Jonathan White
If you have a lot of money to lose, that’s my philosophy on airplanes, right? If you got a lot of cash to burn, go for it. Airplanes, you know, at 30 seconds on that, right, you’re not checking miles, you’re tracking a number of hours in the air. And you better have some personal use, because it’s hard to justify 100% personal use or business use on that. We actually have clients who have airplanes. It’s not, it’s not common, but it’s not uncommon either. Definitely more risky as far as like being on a practice to have an airplane. But second is the cars. So cars are considered listed property, and listed property brings a much larger documentation requirement. You really should have a mileage log and you should track what is business and personal.

23:55
Jonathan White
And if you’re not above 50% business, then you really shouldn’t have a car on your business. So it is, if you look at a lot of one doctor practices, if they were to really try to track their miles, it can be a challenge to get enough business miles. But remember, anytime you go to the post office and CE or any miles, you drive that car. That’s for the business. Outside of commuting back and forth to your office. Those all get you to the car on the practice. But everyone wants to write off the car on the practice, right? I mean, that’s kind of, that’s the quintessential tax deduction that everybody can do.

24:28
Jonathan White
And so typically what we’ve done in the past is, you know, you’re going to take your business percentage and then you’re going to use your business percentage of whatever the gas, oil, maintenance you pay all that through the business. You just want to be cognitive if you are audited. And in the last 10 years, we’ve had audits, but not honestly, they really haven’t looked at cars much, but it was something that was hot and heavy looked at, say, 10 years ago. If you don’t have some kind of an audit log, then it could get overturned. So I always say cars, for your average dental, what I’d call bread and butter return cars are probably the riskiest thing they have on there because not necessarily they don’t drive the business miles. There’s just no tracking of what they’re really doing.

25:07
Dr. Richard Offut
So note to our listeners, take the boat out of the practice.

25:10
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
That’s right, yes.

25:13
Dr. Richard Offut
To simplify the red flag rule. Right, yeah.

25:15
Jonathan White
If you’ve got a boat on your practice, then that’s a whole different discussion. Right. Well. And believe it or not, I seen someone with a boat on the practice. I still don’t think they could justify it, but they actually, the practice was very close to a lake and they said that they shuttled passengers from one side of the lake to the other. So I have seen some passengers or patients, both. Right, there you go. But. But I still think that was a stretch. But we didn’t put it on there. It came to us in that. But you do see some. Some wild stuff. But. But cars. And here’s the other part of cars. Sometimes we’ll get a practice with five cars on it. Well, you got one doctor. Right.

25:52
Jonathan White
Even if you want to stretch and put a car on for the wife, which, you know, once again, you got to have duties and miles and hit all the thresholds to be able to do that, you start getting three, four, five cars to me, that you get outside the bounds there. And so from our standpoint, we always try to, you know, train clients on what the right thing is and how to do it. And even when I was an auditor, I was like, the goal isn’t to get it past me. Right. If you got to sit down with the irs, you got to get it past them. Right?

26:17
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Sure.

26:17
Jonathan White
You know, and a lot of times we’ll pick up a set of books and the clients felt like, you know, we tucked something in there and he didn’t see it. I’m like, even if you got it past me and I didn’t see it, you didn’t necessarily win the lottery.

26:26
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Right, Right.

26:28
Dr. Richard Offut
It’s kind of like the rule of thumb that I think I even told Dr. Chukan this one time is that if your friends don’t think you don’t believe it. The IRS is never going to believe it.

26:39
Jonathan White
Right.

26:39
Dr. Richard Offut
If you’re sitting with your friends and you lay out a plan and they go, boy, that doesn’t sound right. Maybe you should not do that plan.

26:45
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Well, it’s kind of like HIPAA training or OSHA training. We will have an OSHA trainer who comes in and my staff’s like, oh, well, we got to make sure we’re doing this now and this here and we don’t want her to see this or that. And I was like, well, she’s not the one that you’re trying to get something by. She’s the one who’s here to advise you on what’s going on. And hey, and seeing what you’re really doing, hey, you know, you shouldn’t do that because the OSHA auditor is going to pick up on that. I think that’s kind of your cpa, you know, you’re not trying to get something by you. You want you to have full transparency on what you see so you can say, hey, Dr.

27:21
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Shekhan, this is gonna be a problem if they see it, you know, we need to do this way, or X, Y and Z not, you know, and take care of you in the kind of best possible way. I think that kind of goes back to, you know, we’re talking about, you know, strategies for the end of the year. You know, I keep hearing about 14 day rule, you know, and you know, they said there’s different tax changes. Are they tax changes this year or deduction timing or what should we be thinking about, you know?

27:50
Jonathan White
Yeah, so interesting, right? We don’t want to get into politics, but really the politics will dictate the tax changes. So effective at the end of 2025, TCJA, or what’s known as the Trump tax law, it fully expires and you got a lot of options, right? They could extend everything. Nothing could extend depending on who wins. Right. So let’s say you had a blue sweep in the fall 2025. You’re not locked into that law, staying that law for the whole year. They could change it. If you had a full red sweep, that law could change. So even when we look at planning, unfortunately we have to assume that the Trump tax law is going to stay all the way through the end of 25, but it’s possible that it could change prior to that.

28:30
Jonathan White
Now, if we look at Congress and how inept they are, the chance of them doing anything until it runs out is almost impossible. But I do advise clients hey, if we’re making a big decision, right, Are we selling the practice on 11 of 25 or we sell in the practice on 1231 of 24? Right. Now, I’ll tell you, the capital gains rates can be 20% on both sides of that Rubicon. But I can’t guarantee that depending on. Because 20, 25, it could change depending on the outcome. You’re depending on the outcome, right. And if you end up with some version of divided government, then who knows how much of that changes.

29:01
Jonathan White
But I do think our traditional kind of bread and butter planning, when you’re looking at like The Augusta rule, 14 day rental rule, and renting a home that you own to your business up to 14 days and being tax free, that’s something that documentation is key again, right? Making sure that whatever days that you’re renting your home to your practice, you document what you did, whether it was a board meeting, a staff event. And then on top of that, the key of that is the fair market value. So if you live in $100,000 home, it’s probably not worth $2,000 a day to rent, right? So we always recommend look at the, you know, the closest, nicest hotel or meeting space by you, find out what they rent it per day.

29:40
Jonathan White
And there was actually a big tax case this year that came out on the 14 day rental rule. And this couple, they had written off almost $300,000 over two to three years on the 14 day rental rule alone.

29:51
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Wow.

29:52
Jonathan White
And no documentation. Interesting. The court still gave them $600 a day for 14 days a year. They still owed a ton of tax and penalties and interest. But even with no documentation, they gave them $600 a day. Not sure why, but they did give them some credit for that. But they essentially had to pay tax penalties and interest on about $300,000. So just like everything within the tax law, the gray area comes in how you document it and do it, everything’s black and white, right? It’s a rule, it’s not a rule. But then how you implement that rule in your life and your practice depends on how great you document it. And are you doing what you say?

30:25
Jonathan White
If you do what you say and you document it, there’s a lot less gray in tax planning and all of that kind of bread and butter, these items we’re talking about, they’re not really excessive tax planning unless you just write checks and don’t do any of the documentation or really do what you’re saying you’re doing.

30:41
Dr. Richard Offut
So, okay, so let’s Pick an example. I want to buy a new milling machine and a scanner. And what else do I need?

30:51
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Oven.

30:52
Dr. Richard Offut
Oven. Of course I need an oven.

30:54
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Sure, sure.

30:55
Jonathan White
Okay.

30:55
Dr. Richard Offut
So it’s going to cost me $150,000, Jonathan. I want to do it.

31:01
Jonathan White
Yep.

31:01
Dr. Richard Offut
Talk me through that.

31:02
Jonathan White
Yep. So first thing is, are you an S corp?

31:06
Dr. Richard Offut
No.

31:07
Jonathan White
Okay. Not an S corp. Helps, but not. Vast majority of practices are S Corp. So the first thing.

31:13
Dr. Richard Offut
But I’m old, Jonathan, so I have a residual. I had, I had. I don’t have it any longer. A residual sequence.

31:19
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So just backing up real quick. S Corp versus a LLC operating as an S. Or are these the same things?

31:25
Jonathan White
They would be the same as long as you’re operating as an S. But the first question I would ask, we would walk through that. Let’s just say it makes sense for your practice. Right? We’re not just doing tax band. It makes sense for our practice.

31:34
Dr. Richard Offut
I want to expand my offerings to be able to do crowns like Dr. Chukan does. On the same day.

31:39
Jonathan White
Yes. So are you borrowing the money or are you paying with cash?

31:43
Dr. Richard Offut
What should I do?

31:44
Jonathan White
Yeah. So if you’re borrowing the money and you’re an S corporation and you have no basis, so let’s just imagine you’re at zero basis. If you borrow a dollar and you buy a piece of equipment for a dollar and you write it off with first year depreciation, you actually don’t get to take that in that current year because you used borrowed money in a corporation, you don’t get basis in a corporation. I know that’s kind of in the weeds we’re talking about, but I think that’s something that doctors miss all the time. They go and borrow $100,000, buy $100,000 piece of equipment, and they could have basis. Right. Built up money left in the business, bought out a partner. There can be things that cause basis and they could write it off.

32:21
Jonathan White
But if, let’s just say that zero and we’re just looking at this piece of equipment. You can’t write that piece of equipment off unless you put the cash in or you have basis in the business. And that’s where I think a lot of the current year value in buying a piece of equipment where, you know, the Patterson or the shine guy comes in and says, hey, it’s 150,000, you’re going to save, you know, 40% of that. Here’s your real cost. The first question is, are you paying with cash? Great. If you’re paying with cash, you’re paying with earned money, then you’re probably going to get to write that full thing off.

32:51
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So when you say basis, if you have basis, then even if you’re borrowing money, you can take it without basis. What exactly are you talking about with basis?

32:59
Jonathan White
Yeah, so basis is kind of built up retained earnings. If you think about, let’s say a company starts with zero and we earn 100,000 in profit and you didn’t take that $100,000 out in cash because you left it in the business, that 100,000 is there to buy the equipment. Then you still have basis because you haven’t taken that money out. But if you earn $100,000 and you take all the money out as cash, that reduces your basis back to zero. Because kind of a basis, unless if let’s say you start a practice from scratch is really your built up money or retained earnings in the business over.

33:29
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Time as a typical practice have basis. So let’s. I’ve been doing it for 22 years. Do I have basis in my practice?

33:36
Jonathan White
Your basis would be more than likely pretty low. Because you know, if were to.

33:40
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Because I don’t manage my money worth of shit.

33:44
Jonathan White
No. What I would say is most practices.

33:46
Dr. Richard Offut
You just need better advice.

33:47
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
That’s right.

33:48
Jonathan White
Most practices don’t have a large overhead requirement. So let’s say your overhead requirement is $80,000. You’re probably not going to leave much more than $80,000 in your practice in today’s world because you can put that money to work somewhere else. So it would make sense to not have this massive amount of operating capital left inside of a business, especially in a One Dr. S Corp. And so, but that’s the first question I ask.

34:08
Dr. Richard Offut
Okay, so I go, yeah, Jonathan, I’ve got the money.

34:10
Jonathan White
Yeah.

34:11
Dr. Richard Offut
And you go, is the money in the practice or is it in your wallet?

34:14
Jonathan White
That’s right.

34:15
Dr. Richard Offut
And so what’s the difference there?

34:17
Jonathan White
Yeah, so if you were to actually pay for it out of your wallet, you’d make a loan to the business and you could get basis for that because you’re loaning the money in and you could actually take the deduction. So more and cost segregation fair market.

34:28
Dr. Richard Offut
Value that loan to the business.

34:31
Jonathan White
That’s right. And you would pay yourself interest, Right. At least what they call the applicable federal rate, which is a minimum amount of interest you at least have to pay for kind of related party loans. So, but here’s the other thing. Cost segregation studies is one of the things you probably hear a lot about if you’re Buying your building or if you’re doing a big build out and that’s essentially being able to take what is 39 year building property and writing off much quicker.

34:54
Jonathan White
Same issue applies is, you know, I have clients do big cost segregation studies and sometimes it’s on the leasehold improvements inside of an S corporation that was funded through a loan in the S corporation, which means they will get those deductions, they will get them quicker than they otherwise would, but they may not be able to write it all off as fast as they think. And trying to educate clients on basis and why they can’t write off. Hey Jonathan, I just bought 200,000 equipment. I shouldn’t owe any tax. Well, we need to go through about three other steps before we can verify that to be true. Harkening back to, if you have a big question like that, ask your CPA first because you may be buying it thinking you’re getting tax advantage and turns out you didn’t.

35:34
Jonathan White
And you’re like, well I shouldn’t even have bought this equipment.

35:36
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
So here’s my question. So let’s say just my real world example, I bought $150,000 Cerec. I felt like by buying that in that year we did pay less in taxes is my real world example. But I did borrow the money to do it. So I was still able to achieve a tax benefit. And I am an S corp. But I do feel like kind of what goes on. Let’s say you have a five year note on it all of a sudden, let’s say your payment’s $2,000 a month. I felt like what was starting to occur is that as you start paying that thing off the $2,000 payment, even though your practice is making it, I was realizing that as income. So it wasn’t an exp. It was no longer an expense for the practice except for the interest portion of it.

36:24
Jonathan White
That’s right.

36:24
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
And even though I wasn’t taking the, let’s say 1500 of it as principal, I wasn’t taking home the 1500. I was getting dinged like I was taking home the fifteen hundred dollars. Is this, is this what happens or.

36:36
Jonathan White
Yeah, you actually hit the nail on the head better than I could have explained it. So really what you’re doing there is when you take accelerated depreciation, what you’re doing is pulling forward a deduction. You’re not creating a new deduction. And based upon time value of money. Right. Sometimes it’s better to take that tax deduction today, save the tax today, and then pay it essentially over time. But if you would have taken that five year note and depreciated that asset five years evenly, right. You would have been kind of mirroring that payment, that principal payment with the depreciation deduction. And they would have felt kind of one and one.

37:10
Jonathan White
But by taking that big number upfront, say $100,000, when you’re paying that $100,000 back to the bank, if were able to use it in year one because we had other outside basis or inside basis, then we can then in year two, three and four, you’re paying that back with that after tax money because you’ve already taken all that tax.

37:27
Dr. Richard Offut
So there’s no free lunch.

37:28
Jonathan White
There’s not. And I’ll tell you where you see it. The probably most pronounced is a startup loan or a practice purchase and year 7, 8, 9 or 10 of that practice payout loan.

37:40
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
It’s a beating.

37:41
Jonathan White
It is big. I mean, I’ve had a lot of hard conversations. I know we don’t have cash, right, But I know we have to pay this tax because all the deductions got accelerated. And the principal portion of that big, you know, seven, $800 million loan is all coming in year eight, nine and ten. And so those are squeeze years. I try to counsel clients in advance. Look, but when you tell somebody in year three there’s pain coming in year eight, they don’t remember about year three, they just know about year eight. And so you try to explain it. And projections help, right? The one thing and Dr. Chican, I’ve given him a shock once or twice in his life and I’ve heard about it, but nobody wants.

38:18
Dr. Richard Offut
Dr. Chukan doesn’t like that. I’m just telling you, I’ve known him a long time, he doesn’t care for that.

38:23
Jonathan White
But in general, you don’t want to call a client on April 15th and say you owe $60,000, right? I mean there’s no planning involved in that usually or now there can be Mrs. That’s going to happen. People are imperfect. But you gotta. That’s that part of that projection and being ready for year end is planning that. Because you had mentioned, hey, I bought 150 in December, I go to my CPA in January and go, hey, I didn’t make my payment in January because I bought this equipment. He may come back to you in April and say, well, that equipment actually didn’t help you and you still owe that $60,000 and now you got penalties on it because you should have paid it in January.

38:56
Dr. Richard Offut
So you need to read the whole book? Yes, because you can’t read the first chapter.

39:01
Jonathan White
Well, ChatGPT today says you may be able to get around without it.

39:04
Dr. Richard Offut
Well, in terms of saying, calling your account and say, hey, I need to buy this equipment, I want to do it in December. Right. That’s cool. Right? You got to read the whole story.

39:15
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
And you definitely can’t just jump into it and just say, hey, Jonathan, I just bought this piece of equipment.

39:20
Jonathan White
Yeah, Dr. Offit, you said, what questions do you want us to ask? It’s the question before you commit resources to something like that. And because you’re going to always get a better answer and that better answer could be quick. If Dr. Chican calls me and says, hey, I’m going to buy this, will it help me? Within probably five minutes of looking at his stuff because I keep his accounting up to date, I know where his basis is at. I’ve probably ran a mid year projection, I can give him a quick answer on that. But if you’re a client who I don’t have your information, that’s a long process to get to the right answer. And CPAs, we’re typically risk averse. Right. I’m super conservative when it comes to that because I don’t want to get sued giving bad advice or erroneous advice.

40:00
Jonathan White
So CPAs are typically going to err on the conservative side, right?

40:04
Dr. Richard Offut
Right. That’s the job.

40:06
Jonathan White
Well, that should be the job. Right. So yeah, if you get the guy who tells you know he’s going to save you a ton of taxes and you’re never going to get caught. Run unfortunately with social media today and you’ll probably see this a lot, even in your own dental kind of Facebook boards. There’s a lot of tax advice going out there that is not by sophisticated people or anyone who has any training in it. It’s like, hey, I got away with this so you should do this.

40:31
Dr. Richard Offut
Actually, Jonathan, that makes comes to a thing. I don’t want to forget this. We would love for you to post some things for us to help us help our listeners and our viewers on our Facebook page. Because it doesn’t have to be tax law, just vignettes of things. I think we’ve talked about so many things. I mean, Dr. Chukan gave me a list. We’ve talked about two of those things. Everything else we still are working on.

40:53
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
But that’s what Jonathan, first thing we got to do is get him on Facebook.

40:56
Jonathan White
Yeah, it’s funny, Dr. Khan, he emails me and he goes, hey, you got A Facebook. And I was like, it’s about 15 years old and I’ve never posted on it. I was like, so I probably need to set up something for the business. I’m only 47, but I live like I’m 77, so I gotta get into the 21st century, get into this century. Well, now in the practice wise, we’re way far in technology. You know, one of the things that I was gonna mention is when you’re talking about looking for a dental specific cpa, and this is key inside of every dental practice is where’s the technology going inside that firm?

41:28
Jonathan White
If that firm is not, you know, pushing forward in technology, you’re going to be left behind as a client because things are moving so fast in our industry, just like they’re moving in your industry. Imagine if you didn’t use the 3D scanners you have today compared to an old X ray.

41:42
Dr. Richard Offut
Sure.

41:43
Jonathan White
You know, so I think that is a real key when you’re looking to work for someone.

41:46
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah. Let’s back, you know, talking about the technology and the changes. You sent me an email today about and I didn’t read it yet, but he will about something that you guys are doing now that is changing the reporting. Is that something you can explain to our listeners a little bit? Because it seems like you’ve always kind of been at the forefront of the best way to report information to your clients.

42:13
Jonathan White
Yeah. And I think that’s the key. About probably six or seven years ago when we started the practice, were kind of legacy systems. You send us the stuff, we would write it up for you and send you back up a piece of paper that. Here’s where I found out. Clients never ever looked at their stuff. So I used to, back in the day, I would bind it and put the bill in it and I would call a doctor or two and say, hey, you’re going to pay my bill. You’re like eight months behind. They’re like, well, I don’t ever open those. And I’m like, well, what am I doing spending all this time binding it? So we kind of transition to more of a dashboard focus. Right.

42:42
Jonathan White
Is like I always tell clients, if you look at the first five pages or the first two pages and those things are all going in the right direction, they’re color coded. Then you’re at least. Okay. Right. And pay attention to those items. Because I realize most doctors aren’t going to dig in deep. But we do have more and more younger doctors who want to be entrepreneurs, who want to owe four practices who are growing, who are paying attention to the numbers, who want to know what EBITDA is. And as we’re seeing that grow, we’ve invested in more technology. So we send out a kind of a dashboard that comes out of a system. But now the client themselves can get into that system and they can run their own P&L’s and run their own analytics based upon what we’re pulling in there.

43:18
Jonathan White
And what’s nice is it’s not clunky like QuickBooks is. It’s a much more interactive thing. And that’s what. And we’re finding just clients are two sided, right? One, they either want to know everything or they never look at anything. Right. And there’s not a lot of in between. But the clients that want to look at everything are growing. And so we’re trying to meet that need.

43:37
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
And those are the guys who like you said, you run your npl. The last thing I’m going to do is run my np. Are the guys running their own P and L, the guys that are looking at acquiring 234 and are making their own projections out there or who are those guys?

43:50
Jonathan White
Yeah, it’s a couple things, right? If you’re looking to bring in a new partner, right? So if you’re looking to bring in a new partner, a lot of times you want to grow the practice, there’s a threshold before you bring in an associate or make an associate a partner. So maybe for that period in your life you’re really paying attention to those numbers and digging in.

44:07
Jonathan White
But definitely the guys who are guys and gals who want to grow two or three practices, they’re paying attention to EBITDA and then the people who are looking to, and we didn’t touch on this, but DSOs, so that first two, the last two to three years as you head to potentially sell to a DSO, if you know you’re looking that far out, being in your numbers is more important than anything because the sale is going to be a function of EBITDA times a multiple. So for every dollar of EBITDA times that multiple, you just grow your value. So watching your expenses and growing revenue at a good pace, but also making profitability stick because sometimes you can grow revenue and lose profitability and that doesn’t necessarily get you more enterprise value.

44:49
Jonathan White
So you want to be able to watch that EBITDA number in conjunction with what your multiple would be. So it’s a variety of people that are looking at it. But you’re right, most people are not Digging in on a month to month basis.

45:01
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah. So one thing I was thinking about when you start talking about DSOs is kind of from a CPA perspective. Dental, dental specific CPA perspective. Why should or shouldn’t a doc look at selling that dso? Where do you see the advantage? Where do you see you should be the guy looking at DSO or you shouldn’t be the guy looking at dso?

45:22
Jonathan White
Yeah, that’s somewhat of a loaded question, but it really depends. So there’s not a hard and fast rule, but generally what I’ve seen, if you’re within the last two to three years of practicing and you’re maybe in a spot where it’s not easy to sell your practice, we’ve seen this with some of the rural practices or you don’t really have a good succession plan, a DSO can be a good way to get, you know, a good enterprise value upfront with cash work back for two to three years. The key there is finding someone that you’re congruent with, that you can work with, that’s going to treat your patients well and then also looking at what that back end is. So there’s no hard and fast rule for me though.

46:02
Jonathan White
Young, young professionals in their early 40s, unless they’re getting life changing money and that number is different for everyone, selling to a DSO doesn’t make a lot of sense. Typically within five to seven years of working for the dso, you’ve already earned back your practice for them through lower sales and the rollback, the roll forward money that they typically give you. I always count that as zero. So if a client calls me and says, hey Jonathan, I’m going to sell my practice, I was going to wait three years, but I’m thinking about a DSO sale now so I can work out my three year contract with them. First question we always ask is if we’re not working with you on financial planning, have you talked to your financial planner and is the upfront cash going to be enough for you to retire?

46:42
Jonathan White
Because I would always count the rollover equity as zero in any financial plan. Just to be more conservative because we’ve been doing, we’ve seen PE hot and heavy in the last four and five years, I haven’t seen any really pay off yet. Right, sure. Really that could happen. But if I’m 62 and let’s say I’m getting 5 million for my practice and 2 million’s rollover and I need that 2 million to retire, I would not factor that in.

47:08
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
I wouldn’t so you’re not seeing that other two turn into 10, you know, not yet. Like they’re saying, yeah, I mean, it’s going to be a windfall and now you are going to have a plane.

47:17
Jonathan White
And a lot of that rollover equity. And every deal is different. Right. And there’s experts and specialists in that. That, that’s all they do every day. But a lot of that rollover equity, even when it’s time to exercise it, you can’t exercise all of it. So you may still be rolling over multiple times.

47:32
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Sure. Well, Jonathan, thank you very much for spending some time with us today. It’s been my pleasure to know you, work with you for what has it been, 16, 17 years, something like that?

47:42
Jonathan White
A long time.

47:42
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah. For our audience, what would you say kind of takeaway messages would be for them from kind of a CPA perspective? Is there any advice that you can give them, you know, to simplify dentistry for them?

47:54
Jonathan White
Yeah, I would say partner yourself with someone you like and trust. Right. I think that’s really important. And get into your numbers. At least get good quality numbers and pay attention to them a couple times a year. Make sure you understand where your overhead is and so you can have a really profitable practice. And don’t be afraid to ask questions. Right. You know, Dr. Offut mentioned you know, what question you want to hear. What we’d like to do is hear questions because that interactive back and forth banter with clients always ends up with the best result for them and for the firm.

48:23
Dr. Mustafa Shah-Khan
Yeah. Well, thank you all for joining the Simplify Dentistry podcast. Be sure to join our community by registering to receive future podcast episodes of our podcast simplifydds.com, and please join our Facebook community. Simplify Dentistry. Dentistry is a hard profession. We hope that our community can help us all make it simple. Thank you very much.

48:44
Dr. Richard Offut
Thank you.